Ryan Rutan: it is time for another startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan from startups dot com, joined as always by Wil Schroder, my friend, the founder and ceo of startups dot com. Well, it seems like his founders, we often find ourselves having to mold shape, stretch the truth. Where's the line between forward looking optimism and

Wil Schroter: lying? Well, sometimes it's how it ends, right? You know, I'm titanic's going down, right? And you've got two things as the captain. One is, hey, we're going to make it out of this, right, lifeboats, No problem. Right. The other is don't sweat it. We're good. That's straight lying because this thing is going down right, Right, right. But I think this is the moral dilemma, right? That all of us have to deal with. And I think for first time founders who are dealing with this kind of stuff for the first time, they don't know the difference, right? In other words, they don't understand what optimism is. They assume that if I can't predict the future with absolute certainty, right? That I must be lying And look, man, we're in the business of predictions. This is specifically what we do. So we have to understand what that line is. You know, where is optimism? Where is just straight up Theranos untruth and how do we straddle that line or how, you know what's our moral compass with this. And I think we can talk through a lot of examples of where that exists. All right. So before we get into this next topic, I just want to let you know what we talk about here is like 1% of the conversation, you know, really this conversation is going on all day long online at groups dot startups dot com where Ryan and I pretty much talk endlessly with founders about every one of these topics. So if by the end of this discussion, you like the topic and you want to dig into it a little bit more with Ryan and I just had two groups start startups dot com and we'll pick it up from there for sure. For

Ryan Rutan: sure. Yeah, I mean, this is this is sort of ever present, right? Um, it goes back to something we talk about, it's just a fundamental of, of building a startup company, is that you're doing something that's not been done before, at least in the way that you're doing it right? You're under these terms of extreme uncertainty, right? And so your ability to tell the truth about anything that exists from tomorrow forward is extremely low, right? And it's not because you're a liar, it's because you don't know, and you can't right? And so, you know, we've talked about this before, but you know, there's lots of different fuels in the entrepreneur life, but optimism is one of them, right? You, you know, you you said this last week week before we were talking and you said, you know, like, look, we we have to be able to look forward with some level of optimism, because if we just look at the current state where everything that's happened up until now, we'd be like, I'm out, right? Not that I don't need any more of this. Um, so we have to be able to assume that there are greener pastures ahead. Uh, and so that's not lying to ourselves or anyone else. It's trying to project out what we want, the future to look like, and then working our tails off to make it happen, right? This is this is the founder dilemma that what we want doesn't exist. We can't talk about what, what what exists, because it's not compelling. The compelling part is everything we're about to do,

Wil Schroter: but it keeps coming up right? Like this is, I think this is where founders get thrown off because they're used to working at a job where everything has kind of been planned out, right? They show up, they do the same task over and over, they get paid for it. Everything has been figured out already, right? We're in the business all of a sudden where nothing's been figured out at every turn. We have to make shit up, right? For example, we go into a client meeting, right? And the client says, we love, we love what you're pitching. Um, can you have it ready in three months? And we're like, I might be able to kind of give an example, like professional services, right? Fundamentally, if you're growing a professional services business, the only way to grow by definition is to be able to take on work that you don't have the staff for, right? And so in order to do that, you have to be able to sit across from the client who's speaking out work and say yes, we can take this work on with the intention that you're gonna go staff for right now. Do you have those people right now that know exactly, you know, that have been ramped up except you don't, but you'll always be two people in a room unless you make that additional commitment. Are you lying in that case? Right? You're lying if they say, do you have the people right now? No, we don't. Right. If you were to say, um, can you get those people? Yes, we can. Now, maybe you wind up not getting them right. You know, maybe you fall fall down on your role, It's possible, right? But I think this is, this is work. It's really interesting. My intention was to go fulfill your request. Whether or not I did, it isn't necessary. Like it might be incompetence something else, Right? But I don't think it's lying.

Ryan Rutan: Let me bring a really specific example. Let's go, let's go back in time. Well, to, you know, when, when we were first working on fungible, it's 2011, jobs act is about to pass. Um, you know, the, the hope is that now with equity crowdfunding being viable for the first time legally, that all of a sudden we're gonna democratize the funding space. Lots more checks are gonna get written, Lots of startups are going to get funded and of course we have to believe this. We want this to be true and we are working our butts off to make it true right? We're doing everything. We can have the platform ready to have the network ready. You know, curate really good startups, get good deal. Flow Equity crowdfunding turned out not to be the big explosion for funding that everybody hoped. Yes, some amazing outcomes happen. You know, we've, we've raised a ton of money on fungible, but it didn't change the overall funding landscape in the way that we had hoped, does that mean that we were lying to ourselves or everybody else? No, we were just wrong about what the future looks like, which is what happens most of the time when you try to predict the future. But so, you know, and when we have myriad examples of this, in terms of, you know, every startup goes through these cycles where you're making some assumptions about the future, you're building towards that, you're telling clients the types of outcomes that are gonna try to create and then you're doing everything you can to make that true. And as long as the effort aligns with the intention and you're actually trying to do that. Nothing wrong. They're right. You're doing everything you can,

Wil Schroter: well, here's where I think that folks get hung up all the time, right? We prepped folks to do things like go to raise capital and here's every single time because we're talking about the financials and they said, well, how can I possibly go in front of investors take their money and tell them that I'm going to be $100 million business in four years, right? I'm a $0 million business right now, right? How could

Ryan Rutan: I possibly make that commitment?

Wil Schroter: Right? Wouldn't I be lying to them? Right? The answer is no. Right. Well, again, this is one of those situations where as founders, we have to understand that what we're trying to do, our intention matters right. Our intention is to build toward the future. Our intention is to build things that do not exist right now. And the only fuel for that is optimism, right? And I I don't want to confuse optimism with being untruthful, right again. But it's so important for us. So when we sit down in front of an investor, let's say, we're talking to a venture firm And we're talking about the fact that we're going to be $100 million dollars business in four years. A couple of things that are worth noting number one, the people that were talking to know damn well, that probably won't happen, right? Let's just be clear, right? You know, people think what, you know what if the investors give me all this money and I don't become $100 million business. It's like, dude, they're not dumb. They know

Ryan Rutan: that, But I promised them they didn't believe you. Okay. It's cool. It's alright.

Wil Schroter: They knew better. Here's the thing, what people, what folks need to understand is what we're pitching is a potential

Ryan Rutan: outcome, right?

Wil Schroter: It's like when we get married and we take our vows, right? Do we vow that there's no other outcome? Even though the divorce rates north of 50% till

Ryan Rutan: death. Do us part or you turn into a total asshole or idea where we both write specific,

Wil Schroter: right? Like we have to understand that. Um, if we're going into these situations and we go into a lot of them, That's why that's why I want to, you know, dig into it quite literally every day. Oh my God. Right. All of our situations are going to be based on a bunch of different outcomes where we're working toward the outcome that we're all hoping for and talking about, right. But we have to understand that nobody on the other side of us is saying, oh, I guess that's the only thing that's going to happen. And if they do or if we're concerned about that, a cool way to kind of like to bolster that is to say, look, here's where I'm headed. Here are other outcomes that are possible, right? A common one. We're trying to raise our next round, right? We have runway for six months. If we can't raise our next round. Yeah. We're probably not gonna be able to make payroll. Yeah. But the goal is to try to I think I believe we can get the round put together inside of six months. Does it mean it's absolute certain I would stake my life on it? No, it's everything that we do. Dude, everything that we do is based on here's where I'm trying to go here is where my efforts will go. But there's no certainty in what we do. And I think that's what's throwing people off, is they think they must have certainty in order to chart that course. Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: No, it's just it's not possible. And it's not expected, right? I think there there are some expectations when you're saying things to people and you're leading with optimism, there's there is a reasonable expectation that it's not blind optimism. And that's where being able to present those alternate scenarios both protects you and gives you credibility, right? If you say, like, we're going to attempt to raise our next round, we think we'll be able to finish it, you know, within the next six months, um, which will line up with the end of our runway, which will be fantastic. And that's what we're going to try to do. Um, That may not happen. In which case we would not be able to meet our current expenses. And so here are the other scenarios that come up. in that case, we will cut expenses, we will know football, we will go get side gigs, whatever and here are the other outcomes, right? So I think that when you present optimism, it has to be measured right. If you're just simply saying I want this to work so bad that I'll ignore the other potential negative factors and any other outcomes and this is the only this, it's this or, or nothing, right? Um, and often it really is the case, it's this or nothing, but you can't be blind to those alternatives and you can't obscure them from people who are putting their trust in you. So as long as you're not doing that, you're on good footing now as things progress and you start to work towards those outcomes. These things that you've said you want to see come true in the future. They may not, even though you're taking good actions, as long as you're taking good actions, you're still in good shape, right? If you fail, that's one thing. But if you fail to act knowing that failing to take that action is going to impact that income. Now, you're not in good footing right now, you're doing something that's, that's untoward and you shouldn't do that, but very rarely do we find founders who are just like outright saying, you know what, I just don't care anymore. I'm just not going to do the right things like we we ride, we are the captains on the ship, right? Um we ride that analogy all the way to the bottom of the sea sometimes. And I think that comes from that optimism, that hope that desire so strong to make these things true, uh, that we will write these things well beyond the point of no return. Um, and that is kind of the expectation, right?

Wil Schroter: Right. I also think there's a massive cost to not understanding how important optimism is. I'll give an example, right? Uh, back in the day, I'm starting my first agency and I remember going to a meeting and client says to us, you know, can you get this done? And I thought some I remember I had this moral dilemma, right? And this is the first time I was 19 at the time and I was like, huh, I actually don't know that I can get this done right? And and remember remember those old cartoons where they used to be like an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the additional shoulder and the angels like, we can't possibly say that we would do that and the devil's screw it. We need the money wins. Um, but I remember specifically having this this dilemma thinking to myself, well, if I say no, I can't do it because I've never done it before. And then I'm certainly lost. I have no opportunity to make this work. But if I say I can do it and I fail, then I'm gonna feel like ship to, here's what I learned as founders as a very powerful lesson. I said yes to the project that, that wound up being, you know, one of many commitments I made that, you know, grew a huge agency um as a founder, you have to be able to, to, to stand behind your optimism. Right, So important. A few years later, we would have a huge company. Remember eli lilly come to us and say, hey, you know, we want to award a contract to you. I think we had 50 people at the time that would require us to have 250 more people than we had today. Right? Five times the staff. 500% expansion,

Ryan Rutan: Yeah. Right, right,

Wil Schroter: right, right. Um and they need that, that all to happen like within a year. Right? Right now, now look, that type of growth, that type of everything was absolutely unprecedented. I was 22 at the time, my business partner was 26 at the time. We clearly had no experience whatsoever in doing this. Okay, let's just, let's start to add these things up. Right? We have no experience in doing this. Um five times our size. They knew how big we were, by the way, five times our size is just a massive undertaking. Um that's hiring a new person every business day for a year. Right? Um and sourcing all the people, etcetera. Um and then not just hiring the people, you have to actually do the work, right? That's an important part of this, this whole hiring thing, right?

Ryan Rutan: That you've got to hire people to actually get the job done.

Wil Schroter: Yeah. And so you actually have to deliver on the proposed schedule. And so at that moment, if we were to take, uh, the angel and devil again, right? And the angel says, you know what, We've never hired that many people before. We've never done this scope of work before. Um, this, this certainly within our wheelhouse of being 22 26 is way beyond you know what we have the skills for, thank you, but no thank you, Right? And, and we would have been correct, all those, all those statements would have been true.

Ryan Rutan: That's the thing. They're they're both telling the truth, right? That the voices in both ears are each telling their own truth,

Wil Schroter: the devil says, okay, so, so the devil says, if we get this right, if we commit, if we stay behind this commitment and we see it through this will fundamentally change our lives, right? So let's do that, let's commit to this, let's get behind it. And let's deliver to your point earlier, we may fail and failure is a different outcome. But if we if we don't even try, right, if we don't even step up and say, okay, I'm gonna give it a shot, we cannot grow. And I see this with founders, um, around client engagements. I see founders around raising money. They don't understand how they have to use optimism in their willingness to try in order to grow their business. So they go nowhere, which I think is much worse. You know, by the way, I just want to mention if what we're talking about today sounds like the kind of discussion you wish you were having more often, you actually can, you know, we're online all day everyday working through exactly these types of topics with founders, just like you. So any question you would have, or maybe some problem you just want to work through. We're here and we love this stuff and we're easy to find, you know, head over to groups dot startups dot com and let's just start talking. Yeah, yeah,

Ryan Rutan: you know, it's funny, but there's so many, so many analogies here, but I remember my, my hardest of the hard nosed coaches that I had growing up. Um, he came to one point and he said, you know, you need to be taking more shots and I'm like, you know, I I get that, but you know, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not feeling companies like I need you to be confident, I need you to shoot more right? I just need you, you need to be in order to score, you have to be willing to miss, right? But it's like Wayne Gretzky, right? I Miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Um and that was his point. It's like you have to be willing to miss in order to score, right? You can't be certain that you're gonna score, you can be certain that you won't if you don't take the shot. And I think that is this kind of the driving force behind making these decisions. Um funny enough, like my my my agency launched a couple years after years, uh started with a moral dilemma, right? It actually began with with a question that I answered um in that same fashion, which was, you know, I ran into somebody who needed a website built for a business that that they were working for. Um and they knew me as a technical person, right? Just this was a high school and then college connection. And it came to me and said, you know, hey, uh we have a website and you know, computers, right, can you build this one? And I went, well, I've looked at html code, you know, I I have a rough understanding of what goes into it. And and keep in mind that it was a lot less complicated back then. So you could actually still be a full stack developer, which meant knowing one language at the time. Uh And and so what he said, I said, you know, when do you need it by? And they're like, well within, you know, we've got about 45 days. And so I said yeah, we can, we can get something going within that time frame? And I immediately left. Well, you'll, you'll like this one to Micro center, um, went to their, you know, their, their book section and grabbed the O'Reilly's on html and and just spent the weekend learning how to code a site and within two weeks delivered one to them. Um, but I absolutely did not know how to do that when I said yes, but I was sure that I could figure it out and, and it was that certainty and optimism around my ability to do that. That led me to then launching the agency and continue to do that for a number of years before, before selling it. But you know, it started off with that moral dilemma around, I'm being asked to do something that I don't know how to do, but I am more certain that I can do it than I am certain that I can't.

Wil Schroter: So I'll try. Well let's, let's flip it around, let's talk about the other side of the equation, which is just straight up

Ryan Rutan: line. Right?

Wil Schroter: And so here's where it becomes straight up lying and I'll give two comparisons, right. Um, You're about to talk to your address, your employees, right? You've got six

Ryan Rutan: employees

Wil Schroter: times are tough, right? Revenues aren't coming in the way they are, you're not sure we're going to close your round etcetera. And the folks said, are we solving, you know? You know, should I be looking for another job, right? Angel and devil, right? Angel is like, we should tell them we have no money in the bank. Like that's the be honest with the devil is like, hey, we might raise around, you know, let's push it, right? This is where lying comes in, right? If we know we don't have the cash to pay them, that's lying when you communicate a hard found untruth your captain on the titanic and people say, is the ship going down and you say no, right? That's not optimism. The ship is absolutely going down and, and this is where I think founders get themselves in a really tough spot, right? It's Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, right? She was hoping, of course, I mean she was hoping she would build a better product, but she knew she straight up knew that the product didn't work, right? And she told people the opposite that is not being optimistic, right? The part where you say the ship is not going down is not optimism, if it's, if it's sinking now, maybe you'll correct it, maybe you'll fix it in the future and at that juncture, when you land around whatever, then you can change your statement and say, hey, I think we're okay now, right? Um, at which point you patch the hole in the titanic and it's now sinking? Or floating? Rather then, yes, then, yes, you can be optimistic Until then it's iceberg to the bottom, right? We're

Ryan Rutan: going down. You can always come back later and say, hey, we fixed it, right, That's okay. You can do that. That's not lying. That's a new truth. Yeah. I think that, you know, you it's, you said it right. It's knowing right, Knowing facts and misstating them is lying, right. If you're talking about something forward looking, you can't really lie now. You might bend the truth, but it will be overly optimistic. But the minute you start to take existing facts and obscure them from people or change them, That's lying, right? You can't say we raised $1 million $1 million dollars next year, that's okay, right. One of those is a lie. One of them isn't. Um, and you know, I think that for for most of us this is fairly clear. I think these these these sort of very, you know, binary situations that are very easy. It becomes more of a challenge when the situations are, you know, at what point do we do we temper the optimism with truth, particularly, we're talking to stakeholders, right? I think, you know, as we're pitching big vision, that's one thing. But, you know, when we use the example like you did before around something like payroll, right? This is really important to the people who are gonna be faced with this, right? Whether our product eventually lives up to the future vision that we have for it

Wil Schroter: will change

Ryan Rutan: people's lives, right? Um, whether it works out or it doesn't, there'll be different outcomes. But that's kind of far off in the future. When we're talking about the next payroll, that's very, very different. And I think that we have to be really careful about confusing when and where optimism can be applied, right? There are times where we can't be optimistic when it's next monday, there's not room for optimism there. It's a fair certainty that things are going to go sideways. We have to be communicating that with honesty, right? That that the the angel has to be the louder voice in that case.

Wil Schroter: Well, in many cases to like, as much as we may want it to be true, there is a point where we just have to suck it up and say, it's just not an example. You know, going back to the agency world where the client says, you will, have you ever done work like this before and you haven't right? You just haven't worked on that type of work before. You can't say yes, right? That's lying. I mean, yeah, you couldn't do it and put it straight up lying. You should feel shitty about that, right? And so from the founders standpoint, we're always in this, this kind of, you know, consistent moral dilemma where it's like, well should I stretch the truth a little bit so that I can get the work and then I'll make it, I'll make it right? And I'll do it, you can write, but that's just actually not okay, people do it all the time to be clear, right? It gets there's no lack of it. But I think what we're talking about, what I want to zoom in on a little bit is consequence. What is the consequence of me stretching that truth a little bit? What is the consequence of going beyond optimism? Right? For example, if I say, hey, I'm gonna raise some money from friends and family, right? Obviously there's consequence that I can't pay it back. These are personal relationships, et cetera. But the difference between taking their money optimistically and trying to build something and straight up defrauding them is pretty significant, right? Straight up defrauding them was I was supposed to use your money to do X. And I actually used it to do why? Right? I was supposed to use your money to go build my startup. And I actually used it for personal expenses, right? That is not optimism. Um, but, but I think it happens enough. Um, Kickstarter was beat to hell with this right? Here is what happened. And it's just, it's such a beautiful example. Uh, folks raise money on Kickstarter, right? And what is it? It's the promise that I'm gonna go build whatever it is all you idiots just gave me money for idiots? I'm kidding, right? But like, you know, supporters there, but I may not make it happen right now. Here's what happened. A million projects got out there with all the optimism in the world, right? Very few of them actually became what they said they were going to become. And now the supporter group come out comes out with pitchforks and they're saying like, what the hell? You lied to us, you defrauded us, etcetera. How will I live without

Ryan Rutan: my pebble watch?

Wil Schroter: Exactly. Right now, here's the thing, did the founder defraud people not if they tried to do what they said they were going to do and they failed at it, right? And it's so it's okay to raise your hand and say, look, here's what I tried to do. It didn't work. Here's the bet I made, it was the wrong bet, I was wrong, right? It's different than saying, you know, I said I was going to make this bet and I just didn't write, I told you I was gonna go this direction and I just didn't right, I want another direction. That's a huge problem, right? And we don't see it as much as people think in startups, but what it does, it's something we just want to stamp out as fast as possible. Yeah,

Ryan Rutan: yeah, It's it's rarely binary, right? I mean if we go back to the Kickstarter example, we saw a lot of companies where They tried, right? They really did and they were just wrong about some of the assumptions. And then we saw somewhere, it was like fairly gross incompetence, right? It was like, I thought I could get this produced for $5 a unit. Did you ask a manufacturer before you told people what they had to pay for it? Right? No, Okay, that's not alright, right. You can't allow thinking into the equation here, you gotta, you have to know something's right. You have to be able to project out a certain amount. But those cases were few and far between, far more often. It was in the murky gray middle where it was like, well, you know, the, we had, we had shipping delays or right or we, you know, we had to hold inventory and we got taxed on that. We didn't even know that was a thing. Um, and, and now we don't have enough money to actually deliver the product or whatever. Like there were a lot of those cases, but most of them weren't, weren't lying. Um, and they weren't gross incompetence. They were mistakes in some cases. They were horrible surprises for the founders. Um, Yeah, bad bets are just, you know, unforeseen consequences and, you know, as they say, sh it happens. Um, and it happens more frequently in startups than anywhere else I found,

Wil Schroter: but we'll stick with that though, figure this, Most startups fail. Most restaurants fail. Most ventures fail is that because we're just packed with liars across the board that all of these people are just defrauding everybody and trying to, you know, police investors and supporters and customers. No, no, right. There's a small percentage of a freakishly small percentage and frankly they get called out, right? That that's where you're gonna see your Dateline special on. But for everyone else, um, they tried to go a direction, they worked toward the direction and it didn't work, right? That's okay. That is the business we're in. We're in the business of trying to make great expectations happen and usually failing along the way, Right? So, so again, it's, it's not one for one. But the thing is I think we have to be comfortable when we're making, you know, one of those, those big promises etcetera of also being able to be on the other side to say, um, I kind of have to own up to this at some point, right? And I think that's very different than straight up lying saying, dude, I just hope I don't get caught. I think it's different.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I again, it goes back to two knowing right and intense, right? If you're intentionally taking people's money with some certainty or full certainty that you're not gonna be able to do this, but if you don't believe in it, but you tell people that you do

Wil Schroter: quite obviously

Ryan Rutan: lying right, right? And. And so, you know, there's, there's a lot of places that this can go sideways, but it really does come down to your intent. And, and I think it's important to acknowledge why we're talking about this today, because we see founders more often than not get caught up in in not presenting, not taking enough of the optimism. And and you know, like to your point like, how can I tell investors this? How can I get up in front of people in good faith and say this stuff's gonna happen? Um, that's exactly what it is. It's good faith, right? You're you're you're proceeding in good faith. They have faith in your ability to execute on this, just like you do, right? And you don't different story. But let's talk about why you don't have faith in yourself to do this thing, right? That that's an entirely different episode. But assuming that you do, you shouldn't have misgivings about this. And I think that's really the point of this episode is to make people comfortable with the idea that there are two very different sides of this coin. There there is truth and optimism and there is, you know, malcontent lying. Um, and as long as we're on the right side of that coin, we can feel good about presenting things that don't yet exist. Another funny example, going back to when we first launched our our consulting practice, um

Wil Schroter: Elliott. And I

Ryan Rutan: had this sort of, you know, joking agreement that it was okay if he went and lied as long as I felt like I could make it true, right? So there was just like, can we do this for clients? Well, not yet, but we'll figure it out. Okay? So go and present that, tell them that, you know, that, you know, have we done it before? No, we haven't, we have to be honest about that. Um, but if they ask us, if we can do it, we're gonna try. We're gonna try as hard as we have to to to prove that we either can or we can't write. And as long as we go all the way down that road and we do everything we can within reason to make it work. We can feel okay about it, right? And and sometimes you fail and sometimes you don't. Um, but to your point, that's sort of how you grow anything right? We're in the business of venturing, right? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Venture in and of itself is it's inherently risky. We're doing something that hasn't been done before and we're going to find out if it works right? And we don't extend ourselves, that's it, right, will probably fail, right? We're more likely to miss than to score, but we have to take the shots.

Wil Schroter: I agree. Look, none of us are Nostradamus, right? You know, none of us can accurately predict the future, but we're in the business of building it right? We have to be confident in ourselves that if we can't make the future happen and we give it our best, etcetera and we have to be confident in making those predictions of what we think it's going to be. We just have to draw the line at never going beyond saying, I actually know this isn't true, right? I know the money that's in the bank. And when you asked me if it is, I said yes, that's not okay, right. We're okay to live on the side of optimism and try to work for it. But we can't be on the other side where we're just straight up No, you know, we're lying. It's not true. And I think for most founders, the business that we're in, you know, we're generally good people that, that are looking to, you know, kind of build an optimistic future and that's just fine. And I think as founders, we have to get behind them. Alright, So that was fun. But let's actually keep this conversation going. You've heard what we think about this. But you know, Ryan and I would really like to hear what you think and we're online, like all day long, pretty much talking about every startup topic you could think of from fundraising, the customer acquisition to just really had to get all of this crazy startup stuff out of your head and there's tons of other founders just like you they're weighing in on these topics. So you'll get a chance to just hang out and meet some really smart founders were also super, super easy to find. You head over to groups dot startups dot com and let Ryan and I hear what's on your mind, Let's get to know each other a little bit and let's just start having more of these conversations.