Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to the episode of the start-up therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rotan joined as always by Will Schroeder, my friend, the founder and CEO of start-ups dot com. Will, it's safe to say that there are ups and downs in start up life, right? As and as founders, it's important for us to understand how to navigate the ebb and flow, the good times, the bad times, the feasts, the famines and when we have to switch from fight mode to flight mode and so on and so forth, why don't we, when we dig in today and talk a little bit about where these problems come from, how we typically handle them and maybe how we might want to handle them differently than we've seen handled over. Say, I don't know the last 24 months.

Wil Schroter: You know, I think it's interesting because we always time stamp these episodes. And right now as we're recording this, we are in Q three, I guess as of now, of 2023. And the world of investing with start ups is a nuclear winter right now. Now, it's like the longest period between the last age of the unicorns, you know, the age of the dinosaurs was like 2 to 3 years ago when we heard the term unicorn on a regular basis and now you almost never hear it at all. And the reason I say that's interesting is we are clearly in the opposite end of boom times. You know, when everyone is talking about the Decca corns, we don't even have enough unicorns. Now, we needed a whole other term that was Decca Corns. And soon thereafter, we had the crypto rage and everyone going crazy with crypto and you know, things couldn't possibly, you know, there's no ceiling, things couldn't be getting better. And now no one talks about crypto, right? Other than like a butt of a joke,

Ryan Rutan: we do love some hyperbole in our space, don't we? Oh God,

Wil Schroter: we do. We do. And, and frankly, we need some right now. We could

Ryan Rutan: use some used to the ship to the other side of the curve. Yeah, let's ride the other side for a bit. A I

Wil Schroter: R hyperbole savior of the moment. So, so with that said, what happens is in bad times, we assume things that, you know, will never get good again like it, which is the kind of the the feelings now. But the problem is in good times, we assume things will never get bad. And what we need to talk about today is how to level those two, right? How to have the right mindset when times are good also how to have the right mindset when times are bad. But I think in order to do that, in order for us to be consistent, I think we should first probably talk about how the good and bad times aren't just a single moment in time. They a consistent moment in time. Like most start ups are like a roller coaster where you'll go through. Oh, my God. I think you will. We're never gonna make it to, oh, we just landed a precede round to, oh my God, all the money's gone. We're going to fire everybody to, oh, we just got a customer. So I guess we're hanging on for like it is a series of deaths and rebirths. It's, it's not a straight line. The problem is on both ends of those. We tend to freak out, you know what I mean? So, for sure.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah. I mean, you know, we always like to draw these, these start up growth graphs as these hockey sticks. But, you know, you and I both play hockey. Can you imagine playing hockey with the kind of stick that a start up growth graph actually draws like you'd never hit the ball. Yeah.

Wil Schroter: Right. Right. Yeah. No, it's crazy because most of us are doing this for the first time. So let's start there. Right. So most founders are going through this for the first time and we just don't understand the depths in the heights and the depths of this oscillation. So, again, when we're first starting out, almost anything is a win. We've talked about this before. Like, you know, when you're first getting kicked off, raising 50 K feels like you're killing it. Right. Giving away

Ryan Rutan: 50% of your company to a co-founder who's gonna leave next year. But you don't know it yet. It feels like a

Wil Schroter: victory. Exactly. Exactly. But at the time, at the time, I think we're of the mentality that things are on the upswing. So, what does that mean? Again? We're talking good type. What does that mean? We gotta start hiring folks, we gotta start making commitments. Right. We've got to spend money. You gotta spend money. Right. And that makes sense. Right. Because everyone's got to spend money to make money. You also have to spend money to lose money, by the way. Yes, it

Ryan Rutan: is. Yeah. It's the fastest way to lose it. Right. Other than just actually losing it. Right. Physically losing it.

Wil Schroter: Right. Right. And so as those oscillations happen, we go from, everything was great and we're spending money. That's the easy part to. Oh, no, we hit a speed bumper. So we think we're gonna hit a lot of these, we've been around start ups dot com for 11 years. How many ups and downs? Have we seen a million?

Ryan Rutan: 33 I think? Yeah, three per year for 11 years. And

Wil Schroter: we get a tiny bit smarter each time Right. We get a tiny bit smarter that we look back and like, oh man, those good times that we should have spent money a little bit differently. Right. And then the bad time it's like, you know, we've been here before, right? You know, things are slow, quarter, slow year, whatever it is, we just got a motor through and get through it. But Ryan, as you talk to founders, because you talk to mostly founders, you know, in the formative stages, how aware are these, how aware are they of how many oscillations they're going to

Ryan Rutan: see? I I don't think there's any uh there's very little awareness of the oscillations there, you know, especially at the early stage, they're just trying to get some lift off the ground. So they sort of assume that the only way to go from here is some version of up or just abject failure, right? And so you've got these two paths, but they're not far off the ground at that point. So I think that the the the challenge for them is that they haven't seen any movement in either direction yet, right? Their journey is just plainer, they're just moving sideways and not much is happening in either direction. There's very little risk is very little reward, nothing is really happening. And so it's until they see those first subtle changes in one direction or the other. And then of course, what happens just like anything we experience for the first time, right? We experience, you know, fear as a child for the first time. We assume that's gonna last forever, right? We experienced love for the first time. We assume it's gonna last forever. Right? And so I think that's where we, we end up with these start up founders is that whatever happens next, they assume that's what's gonna happen forever. So I don't think there's really any sense that like this is about to become a very undulating path with extremely rapid rips up and down. Let's take a

Wil Schroter: look at all the, the in the mania that happened around the funding cycles of 2021 and we pick on funding cycles simply because they're so obvious that everybody sees them, right? If I were to say the revenue cycles, people don't write stories about a company that just hit a revenue milestone unless they're public, right? Generally information you don't hear and sort of no one cares but raise $2 million and you know, you'll be in your local papers. So what's also interesting about funding rounds is it's a lot of money all at once with the express intent to spend it, express intent to spend it. And with the implication that there might probably sort of might be more later on, right. So we are at a very vulnerable time. So you get to this point, let's use example company where you and I have started a company we've raised, let's say $2 million.02 million dollars in a, in a seed round, right? A reasonable amount of money. But all of a sudden we went from having like $38,000 in the bank and that was with like credit cards, we still had to pay off to having $2 million in the bank, which feels like a billion dollars by comparison. So what do we do? Because we're smart, responsible founders that just had investors get behind us. We spend it. We take on what used to be office space. We take on employees. Usually our biggest staffing expenditure. We sign huge contracts with vendors, right? Multiyear contracts, you know, that seem ok because we have the the cash and we do other things like we, we, we get involved with the marketing budgets. We do R and D all these things and that's just with $2 million. Now something cool happens. We get toward the the end of this, this is usually a 12 to 18 month window and then we start to realize we're running out of money and maybe we're lucky. We're lucky. Not lucky. Fortunate, not lucky. Lucky is for people at the lottery fortune is what people who make it. We're fortunate enough to go raise on some, some additional cash. We's another, let's say $10 million a lot of money right now. We're crazy rich now, we're even more drunk. What we're not realizing as this thing is starting to cycle up is that this is probably likely, statistically the last time things are gonna be good for a while and probably likely, statistically we won't raise another round or the time it'll take to get to the next round is gonna be way longer than we think. But things have been going so well for so long that we don't plan like this and that's the crux of what we're talking about in good times. We plan for good times. Now, every start up from 2021 wishes, they only could do one thing. Save some of that cash. Yep.

Ryan Rutan: Yep. Sit on a little bit more of that cash, maybe hire less of those people that we just laid off. You know, there's a whole, whole lot of things they can do there, but it just goes back to this notion that they just haven't seen the, the ups and downs yet, right? To kind of your point. If you raise that first round, things went well before that, it's very rare that things were going really poorly and you just happen to raise around. Right. So things were going well, you are on that, you raise the round, you put some more money into the obvious stuff. It continues to grow. It looks right. Everything seems to be going roughly the right direction. Um, investors put some more money in, this is where things start to get more serious right now. We're at that point where, OK, that next round, as you said, it's gonna be further out, right? So we've gotta have product market fit somewhere within this round. We've got to start to see some revenue replenish all this money that we're spending like drunken sailors has to start to come in. Right? And when it doesn't suddenly there isn't really a plan B because they took the two data points they had so far, which is things go, ok, we raise things go, ok, we raise things go, ok, we raise but then when things don't go, ok. All of a sudden they're like, well, wait, my vector line pointed towards things going, ok? And more money coming in from investors instead of customers contracts. However, else you were planning on making money. And I think this is where things start to go off the rails guys, your point, right? Like in good times, yes, we have a responsibility to spend that money and do good things with it. You know, this is why our investors gave it to us. They didn't give it to us that we could sit on it and bear interest. Right? That's not, it's not where we get money, but we have to be balanced and metered in how we do that, particularly if you're a founder who's never encountered a bad time in their start up yet. Great. Awesome. I'm high fiving you. I feel great for you. I'm just gonna say it will come it will come, there will be difficulties, there will be downturns, right? And so if your only plan, if the only way you're looking at the future is a continuance of what's happening right now, you're probably in for some really rough

Wil Schroter: surprises. So imagine for a second in good times, there was future version of you that came back in time and said this is gonna sound crazy, but take a third of everything you're about to spend and don't spend it right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna call that the ghost of longevity's future. And so let, let's use the word longevity for a second, ok? Because I think that's a term that a lot of start ups aren't familiar with as a concept, especially in good times. Ok? So we just raised some money or we've just landed a big new customer, we have some money to spend is the point and we're trying to think through how to do it, which again is the gist of what we're talking about today. There's one path where we said, what are our growth options? And we weigh those and we make those bets and we do those things. That's part of the right thing to do. But the part of the conversation that no one's having typically is the longevity conversation. Yes, we're gonna make this decision. But how will it impact longevity? Now, let's talk about what longevity actually means to a start up longevity for many start ups in the formative stages means will be around to the end of the quarter. Right. Right. Yeah, I wanna be relative to longevity, right. But as we get bigger, as we have more payroll, et cetera, longevity is more about will we be around through a down cycle? Right. So a down cycle is typically 6 to 12 months. It could be longer, but a down cycle, here's what it kind of looks like. We just lost a key customer, right? Economy takes a header. That'd be a big one, right? Our fundraising round is taking longer, by the way, it always does than we thought it would. I'll give an example if we had, let's say Ryan Art $2 million seed stage company, we're down to $600,000 left. At that point, we're starting to think about longevity, right? We've got a burn rate of say 100,000 a month, right? Which for, for those of you that aren't familiar with the term, which means how much money we're losing every month and we've got 600,000 left in the bank. So best case, we have six months of longevity left. And by the way, if you have 600,000 in the bank and you're burning 100,000 a month, you have less than six months because you don't just take everybody right up to the last paycheck and make it. Oh, by the way, everyone, we can't make the next paycheck and the whole thing is done, you have to be making those calls in the next 3 to 4 months. Minimum, minimum. Ok. So again, we're going back to making decisions around longevity. So when we say, hey, we've got $600,000 left, what we should be talking about is how do we preserve longevity? We're no longer in growth mode. We're in longevity mode because we get to be back in growth mode when we land more contracts, when we raise more capital, et cetera. But right now, it's all about longevity. We need to survive long enough and this takes us to the bad times. We need to survive long enough to get back to a growth phase. Do you know what I mean? And I don't think that's part of the conversation. How do you see it when we think about in good times? Why is longevity lost to you? You know, something that's really funny about everything we talk about here is that none of it is new. Everything you're dealing with right now has been done 1000 times before you, which means the answer already exists. You may just not know it, but that's ok. That's kind of what we're here to do. We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually solve these problems all day long at groups dot start ups dot com. So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. I think again,

Ryan Rutan: it just, we tend to just want to extend, right. This feels good. We like this. This is all going. Well, let's just keep doing this. And I think that people do understand that there are things that are outside of your control that may impact that. Right. And yet I think we kind of blissfully ignore that. Look, we've said this before. You have to ignore a lot of bad things or you can decide to start a start up company. Right. You have to willfully ignore some of the obvious signs that say probably shouldn't do this, right. Because the odds are stacked, all these things holding that aside. But I think one of the other things that comes up is that people tend to look at either the micro or the macro and, and sort of whichever one is more favorable, that's what they pay attention to and what do I mean by that? So, in the macro situation, you and I have just gone through talking about, you know, how, where we are. We're in a, we're in the coldest winter ever. Ironically, it's the hottest summer ever in reality in recorded history. But it's a winter for fundraising. That's a macro element that is impacting a lot of start up companies. And so people look at that and they might go, ok. Yeah. But we're not actually raising right now, you know, we're 1224 months out. Cool. That's fine. There's all these micro things that happen too. You mentioned some of them earlier, right? Which is you lose a key client, right? That may not have anything to do with the macro environment competitor comes along. They decide they no longer need it. They go out of business for reasons, entirely unrelated. You lose a key salesperson, right? Your CTO and co-founder quits and now you no longer have anybody leading the product road map there. All of these things that can happen that can change even what looked like good times at a macro level into bad times. And again, like maybe these are short term hiccups. But when you're looking at a scenario like you laid out before where it's a six month runway, even a hiccup can watch you plummet right off the end of that runway. And so I think this is where we have to be super, super careful. Again, you don't want to take your foot off the gas at the wrong time either. So you have to balance all of this stuff out and it's not simple, but you do need to approach this with more than a single measure of caution in terms of, can we be around? How do we take a longer view of this to your point? How do we plan for longevity? And we've said this 1000 times in the podcast, which is that a big part of the start of success is simply being around long enough to achieve it, right? And so if you risk that longevity, right? It's a massive, massive risk for what I would argue is very little return, try to grow when there are some obvious signs that maybe we should proceed with a little more caution, but I don't know, you see it differently. Here's

Wil Schroter: what I see. I think it's really hard to think about longevity when your longevity isn't at risk. When it doesn't feel like it's at risk, doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. If you just raise a bunch of money, longevity isn't really the first thing on your mind. You know, you don't feel that consequence yet, which is the problem. That's actually the there in lies the problem this, this is how you wind up in those bad times. It's really difficult. You know, a good parallel here would be your health. People don't think about being sick when they're not sick. They don't think about being disabled when they're not disabled, right? Like you take those things for granted because you, you have to luxury of focusing on other things until a consequence arrives. Then you start to understand, you know, the value of your health, the value of your longevity, et cetera. And that's really what we're talking about here in good times. We just become unaware that our existence, right? That our longevity is at risk. And so we don't plan for it. We plan very poorly in the same way. You know, when I'm feeling great, when I'm feeling healthy, I do a lot of dumb things that risk my health because I, I feel great. Right. I can do it. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and our mentalities are kind of hardwired this way, which is fine. However, let's push to the other side. Everything's terrible. How do we plan in that environment? now when things are terrible, all we care about is longevity. Yes. Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: Becomes a real priority. At that

Wil Schroter: point. There is no start up with three months of cash left in the bank whose biggest concerns are their month over month growth. Like that's a nice to have like I, I wish I had some month over month growth. Maybe that would help with my fundraise. But let me tell you I got three months left in the bank. All I care about is longevity right now. By the way, that's all you should care about at that point because growth in all the other decisions you were making were the luxury when you had longevity. Those are luxury items when you have longevity. But what happens is in the good times, we start to deliberately sacrifice our longevity. That's also the core of what we're talking about here. How many start ups that raised in 2021 which which by this time stamp is two to in some cases, almost three years as far as, you know, how you would stretch it away. How many start ups would kill to have that money back hills have not sacrificed their longevity. 80 90% of them. Oh my God. Right now, it's easy to say when it's already happened, right? It's easy to say. But think of how many lessons are being learned right now about this concept of longevity. And so again, we keep talking about funding rounds and the truth is most of the folks listening to this podcast won't raise a funding round or, you know, are gonna be bootstrapped or just have traditional revenue, statistically, nothing to do with our listeners or otherwise. But the same rules apply. Ryan, you and I both were in ad agency. Every time our agency landed a big new client, we thought we were rich forever and every time we lost a big new client, they'll

Ryan Rutan: never go away. Oh, they're always gonna go, they're all gonna go away.

Wil Schroter: Exactly. And after kind of enough of these feast famine cycles, you start to get a little bit smarter, right? Be a little more experienced. We're like, you know, maybe we shouldn't hire that person full time, maybe we'll stick to contract hiring full time. Feels great. It feels like expansion, but there's a chance we won't be able to keep that person when things go the other direction and things will always go the other direction. Stick

Ryan Rutan: on that point for a second. Something you said there. I, I've been, this has been rolling around in my head for a couple minutes and now you've opened the window, which was that there's a chance, right? And so I think that we've talked about this before, we did an entire episode on optimizing for the probability of an outcome, not just the size of an outcome. And I really started to, to think about this when you were talking about, you know, when you've got three months of cash left, growth is not the thing that you're thinking about, right? And sometimes we do, right? We start to look around for like what's gonna be the thing that saves us, right? Where can I place my bet where you should place your bet is on something very certain as your longevity goes down. When you can see the end of the road, you have to make decisions that are very certain, right? Cutting costs is a certainty right now, you can cut through fat and cut into muscle and reduce revenue, right? If you cut your entire sales team, but you were planning on having revenue to overcome this next like bad idea, right? But you may have to cut back on marketing spend. You may have to cut back on your product roadmap features, something else, those are certainties, right? Trying to launch a new marketing initiative is highly speculative and that's maybe something that we can't do in that moment. So I think that we've typically applied this to things like exits, to funding rounds to these bigger outcomes. But I think that just as a general best practice, we need to make decisions based on the the likelihood of the outcome, not just the excitement, not just the size, not just the, you know what, whatever this great thing that we think is gonna happen, marry that up against the probability of an action coming true and use that to guide the decision making, especially in bad times. I think

Wil Schroter: in bad times again, we over correct on that side too, but let's face it. We also don't have as many options, right. In good times, you can make bad decisions and still be around in bad times. If you make bad decisions, you're no longer around the consequences, you're out of business, right? So it's not like you have a ton of optionality. Now that said, I think the one thing that's always been important to maintain and well get ourselves, you know, in the same situation as start ups dot com, we're also in a bad economy, you know, we're not a funded company but, you know, we're affected by it like everyone else. And so things are slower than they have been in the past. Just the nature of the beast that the tide has gone down for everybody. We get that. But how do we build our business right? Being conservative right now, but also with an eye to the future because these things do burn off. Now if I were to go back in my time machine 20 years ago. Right. And I'm going back to the dot com bust. Ok. I was like 2829. Right. All I had ever seen were good times. And if you're a CEO that grew up, you know, in your twenties, over the past generation, the past decade, all you've seen is good times. I mean, you were, you probably came out of the, the ass end of the final financial crisis in 2007, 2008, maybe depending on where you were. And you many haven't understood what it was. Capital is

Ryan Rutan: freely flowing. Houses are cheap, interest rates are down. This is amazing. It's forever,

Wil Schroter: the stock market always makes money. It is. And so you would have been in the same boat. I'm just using as a recent example, not just my stone age example. So, but I'm, you know, in my late twenties and things have only been good. Things have only been good. So I, I don't know, I don't know how to plan for bad times because I haven't had one yet. Ok. But then dot com crash, right? You know, in the US 911 happened, which was, you know, a big part of that, that kind of like just sent things the wrong way and again, the, the stock markets themselves crashed and everyone went running for the hills and I had no idea what was happening at the time. Like, I just, it just was so anomalous. Everyone said it was coming, but people always say it was coming. You know, I think Warren Buffett said economists have successfully predicted the last nine of the last five recessions. Right. You know, there's, there's always the doomsayer, doesn't, it always happens. The point is when things hit the fan, I went polar opposite the other direction. I was like, it's game over. This will never get better. You know, basically like, like let's all go back to our huts and, and, and survive, right? Once you've been through some of these boom bust cycles, you see what the afterlife is from those. So in the early two thousands, uh 2003, 2004, 2005 really, really the important things happened. That was the dawn of performance marketing, which, which sounds hilarious now because like all performance, all marketing, performance marketing, but this was the dawn of paper click. It was the dawn of what would become Seo because Google became a thing. It was the dawn of affiliate advertising. I mean, you know, Ryan, you remember all this stuff, right? That didn't exist in the prior cycle, but out of necessity became a new thing, right? Server costs went down with the very start of what would become the cloud. The cost of people to write code went down exponentially the point is in the bad times, we don't understand that the world is still evolving. What we don't understand is that new opportunities are actually about to be planted, so to speak or harvested. This is kind of a silly example, but I just was reading about this the other day again, 2003, Q 3 were in the tail end or maybe it still in the middle of massive Canadian wildfires, right? And, and no one can stop them because they've gotten so out of control. But I read somewhere that said these are really important for reforestation and rebirth, right?

Ryan Rutan: And they've been happening for millions and millions of years. Right.

Wil Schroter: Right. The point was sometimes you have to burn it all down to restart, to get something healthy again. And it's really hard for us to have that mentality when everything is on fire. Right? Like that's, that's the hardest time to think about the future and growth, you know what I mean? For sure. Yeah, I think

Ryan Rutan: the thing to be careful about there is to say that like, ok, so then what does that actually look like for a start up company? Right. So, yeah, if you know that everything's burning down around you, right. And how do you decide between this is doomsday? Right? Or this is doomsday for my start up at least, right. This is doomsday for my start up, at least. How can I insulate myself? How do I protect myself enough so that we're there for that change. You know, we did an episode last week, the week before where we were talking about a, I just a, I is a proxy for the, you know, kind of the boogeyman that's gonna come and change everything and everything's gonna end and nothing will ever be the same again except that it probably will, a lot of it will be. But the opportunities come from that too. Right. And so how do we really do the calculus on timing that balance where it's like, ok, I see the end of the runway. I know that I need to extend it. How far and how deep do I cut to make that happen? Right to your point. When time start to look bad we can easily over. Correct right now if you're about to Thelma and Louise off the end of your runway and no

Wil Schroter: one even gets that reference anymore. Oh,

Ryan Rutan: wow. That's probably true. About to drive off of a cliff which nobody will get that either. They're like, wouldn't my tesla stop?

Wil Schroter: I use Wiley Cody the other day and, and as I said it in my workshop, I'm like, jeez, no one on this call has any idea who Wiley Coyote is like, oh, my dad used to watch that

Ryan Rutan: Acme Corp went bankrupt in like 1982 and like they been around. So if you're about to go off the end of a precipice in some sort of vehicle self-driving or otherwise there's no such thing as an overcorrection. Right. At that point, you have to do whatever the hell you have to do to stop that from happening. I think that where it becomes really problematic and I know just like in, in my own career thinking back, it was those times where you could kind of see it. And again, like you said before, people are starting to talk about it, they're claiming it's coming. I have been waiting for the the housing bubble to burst that I can make some more investments since like 2013, I think um we 10 years later, yeah, it still hasn't happened. And so, you know, I think it's, it can be really hard to balance the need to do that. And again, like these are big emotional decisions too, these things that you're you're gonna face at the same time, you're also trying to run your damn company. And so really having some kind of buffer against all those things would be helpful here. What's worked for you in terms of just how you think through

Wil Schroter: that. Let's take our business right now. Start ups dot com right now. All I care about as a CEO say in this case and CFO since these two guys seem to talk to each other is longevity. I don't know how long this is gonna last, you know, the, the economy and everything else like that. No, one does, but I do know that there's until there's a signal that tells me otherwise I need to be in hibernation mode, so to speak. Which sucks. I don't jump out of bed in the morning and say that I want to be in hibernation mode. What

Ryan Rutan: I would like to do this quarter is the same thing we did last quarter without any changes at all. That's exac, yeah, nobody ever, yeah, it's so

Wil Schroter: boring. Right. So, don't get me wrong, don't get me wrong. I'm not excited about it. However, I just happen to be quote seasoned enough. Now that I've seen what happens when you don't plan for that when you don't plan for the hibernation when we were in the agency business and, and went to nuclear winter back in 2000, 2001, we were one of the few agencies that survived. And now, now that's a public, right? Like because we survived when I watched this happen in the financial crisis. You know, I was running a bunch of different companies, some survived. Some didn't really nothing to do with the financial crisis. Same thing. The ones that were able to survive by the way became start ups dot com, right? You know, like there were, there were different permutations of what start up dot com is pre launching start ups dot com and their ability to survive through the downtime gave us the opportunity. So here's the way I'm looking at it right now. Just to give you a sense right now. We're in the bad times. I know in the good times we could have made a couple better decisions, but we're smart enough. We're experienced enough. I don't know if we're smart enough. We're experienced enough to know that we didn't go too far over our toes. We didn't get to the point of being unrecoverable. The second thing though right now is that because times are tough, all we're talking about is longevity. We want to be able to make moves. We want to do much as we can with the food that we have so to speak, but we have to be around long enough for everything to kind of move on. And if you will for the frost to pass and for spring to come, spring always comes, it always comes. Our goal right now is to be alive long enough to enjoy it. So, in addition to all the stuff related to founder groups, you've also got full access to everything on start ups dot com. That includes all of our education tracks which will be funding customer acquisition, even how to manage your monthly finances. They're so so much stuff in there. All of our software including BIZ plan for putting together detailed business plans and financials launch rock for attracting early customers and of course, fundable for attracting investment capital. When you log into the start ups dot com site, you'll find all of these resources available.