Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan joined as always by Wil Schroder Ceo and founder of startups dot com. Well, we talk a lot about how much time we spend at our startups and you know, there's a benefit to spending time on your startup and it sort of doesn't go anywhere if you don't, but what about doing stuff that's not startup related, that can that be good for us? I

Wil Schroter: wish we did more of it. I mean, right, I mean, think about this man, think about how much time we have now to do non startup stuff, like, you know, 78 years into startups dot com that we didn't have before. I mean, like, let's not overlook that we're starting a company, starting a family and all those different things. How is your health this year compared to compared to past years being able to do some non startup stuff. Let's start there.

Ryan Rutan: Oh man, it's it's night and day. I mean, it literally, it says it's about as opposite. It can get like I had to send a passport copy of my passport today for renewal And the guy in that passport that's allegedly me looks nothing like me. He's like trying to play £20 heavier, doesn't look like he slept for about a month. Uh and that's circa 2000 and early 2013, so we were about a year. And at that point it looks like another person. I mean, I'm amazed every time they let me in or out of the country now and that the contrast is incredible. I mean the difference that based on my health and condition now compared to that guy who really seems like a different person. Absolutely insane for

Wil Schroter: seven years younger.

Ryan Rutan: No, no, I

Wil Schroter: know right. I mean you were seven years younger when, when that photo was taken And you look like the ghouls, you look like alternate version, like back in time version or forward in time version. You look the ghost of Ryan future. That was seven

Ryan Rutan: years ago. Somebody would assume it's like my, my fat and slightly sick uncle. That's what it looks like. It doesn't look like me.

Wil Schroter: And right. I remember showing you that ghoul of a picture that I had roughly same era by the way, roughly same era of some alternate reality version of myself who was killing it as a startup. But I looked awful. I looked like I had come down with a rare rare disease and I didn't have long to live. Like that's how bad it looked Man. That was seven years.

Ryan Rutan: I know that's the thing. We we all, we all look significantly better than we did seven years ago. I mean, the uh, we could be a case study in in the power of stress and what stress relief does for the body. I mean, it's it's

Wil Schroter: and I think, okay, look, part of the stress went away because obviously we, the businesses come further along. It affords us more luxuries whatever and that's obviously part of it. You know, we've kind of gotten past some stuff, but I also think in that time we figured out that all start up all the time is broken and and I don't hear enough within the startup community of that discussion. So I'm really interested to kind of break that open today because there's this idea that if you're not all start up all the time, you're not committed in quite the same way and and we tried it, it didn't go very well. Yeah,

Ryan Rutan: nearly killed us. Quite literally nearly killed us

Wil Schroter: man. Now that you say it. Yeah, it actually kind of did like that's we've talked about

Ryan Rutan: this before, but there was a point at which Ellie and I loaded you into the back of a car and drove you to an emergency room right now

Wil Schroter: and I didn't really think later. Yeah, I mean and that was you know, that was a combination of not managing stress, but I also think and this is this was definitely part of it that we didn't really realize at the time you have to have a life outside of your startup in that life outside of your startup needs to be really meaningful. And yeah, for sure. I don't know that I well I can tell you, I didn't always feel that way. I always thought that if you weren't startup guy all the time that you weren't committed, like I was part of the broken narrative and I had the ghoulish persona to show for

Ryan Rutan: it to go with it. Yeah. You know what's funny is that I think we all heard this when we were probably five or six years old all work and no play makes johnny a dull boy. Um, and yet somewhere along the way we absolutely forgot that, you know, I think part of it is that for for a lot of us work is a bit like play, right? As we're building a startup company, there are aspects of it that feel fun that feel like there's a lot of it that sucks, you know, it's a lot of it, it's really hard, but when you're doing something you love, I think it's a lot easier to forget that you need to go play that you need to take time away from it, right? And I think this is a big part of that trap. I think there's two pieces to the trap, one jaw is absolutely the, if I'm not doing this and I'm not putting myself in 100% this isn't gonna go anywhere. The other side of that is, hey, I'm enjoying myself anyways, I'm going to do something I love, so I should spend all my time doing that. And I think that those two, those two factors combined get a lot of founders caught up in a really, really bad spot,

Wil Schroter: let's dig into the part where we're saying what we do when the non startup stuff actually helps the startup and I'll give you a bit of a perverse example and I'm ashamed to admit this, but it's true in about it's christmas time when we're recording this, it's, you know, we're heading, I'm sorry, it's december, we're heading into christmas time and, and I'm about to go on what's about a three week break. And you know, the first thing that came to mind, I think I even told you this when I said, I'm looking forward to the break was how much more capable I'll be of work at the end of the break, right? I'm not even, Yeah, which is cool, but I'm thinking of my break as a mechanism to do more work. Thinking about it as this is something I could be doing to actually enjoy earn time or anything else like that and that's, that's a part of me that's still broken, admittedly so, But there was a part of me last year, the year before and 10, 20 years before that where it was much worse, I would say I deserve no break, not on weekends, not on holidays. I think you take a break when your body absolutely gives out on you. Like that's when, you know, it's time to take a break that

Ryan Rutan: didn't get

Wil Schroter: a lot of level.

Ryan Rutan: Um,

Wil Schroter: I don't remember having a lot of big breakthroughs when I hadn't slept for three weeks at all and this isn't just about sleep or rest part of it, it's not even just about anxiety, it's about you can only get the best of yourself when channeling it in one way all the time. I just I don't think that can happen. No,

Ryan Rutan: I don't think so either, you end up burning out, right? And it accelerates that significantly when you're completely focused on one thing all the time, you know, and it has a lot of benefits, right? We we talked about a lot of the different aspects of what it takes to be a startup founder and it is a very dynamic role, right? We have to be able to think creatively sometimes think linearly others. And you know, I think when you just get stuck into this pattern of work, work, work, work work, you end up breaking down your ability to do those things right? Every time I sit down and play with my kids, I remind myself the value of that playtime and I'm like, I come out and I just, it does something to you, right? You come out more creative, we know this, there's science behind this. And so, you know, that's just 11 small example of, of things that you can do that aren't work that actually have a benefit when you come back that and there are hundreds of them, right? But it is important that you're you're absolutely right.

Wil Schroter: I want to dig into some of yours because you have like a dream set of things that you get to do and, and deservedly so, when I say get to do, I mean because you've created a world where you can do these things and I think it's super powerful and it's been rewarded in use in so many ways, let's talk in a typical day in a typical week, what are some of the non startup things that you're doing, they're putting hit points back for you?

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, Oh man, you know, and and like this is that we can go off on a whole whole, another episode on lifestyle design at some point, but the lifestyle that I've designed at this point has allowed me to do some things that honestly, I never thought would come back. And so even just bringing them back regardless of the level at which they're happening has had a huge boost, because there were things I didn't really think that I would, I would do again Um in my lifetime, and one of those is, is playing soccer at a, at a fairly high competitive level and it's been amazing to come back to that after, you know, a 20 year gap in competitive play. I I came back this year and I've been able to join a team and uh and and really kind of come back into being a very competitive player. Again, The physical aspects of it have been fantastic. The mental aspects have been, you know, really, really amazing, my sleep is better, my energy levels are higher, my weight is £20 different. It turns out you can't be a sloth and run around on the soccer field. Yeah, and and it's been incredible. I mean, just the emotional highs that I get from it, and the level of addiction that I have now to the endorphins and and the dopamine that are coming from, that is unreal. The other one that that's also a very physical um and equally mental is jiu jitsu, which is something I came to later in life, right? And this is something that I discovered about a year and a half ago and then had to stop for a bit when we did our international move and then picked back up again down here and Spending about 5-6 hours a week training, um no more like 6-7 I guess in the evenings and it's been incredible. I mean it's it's physically demanding, it's mentally demanding, it's brought back a really good dose of humility into my life. Um you know, going back to play soccer again, it was sort of like, I I could remember that once upon a time, I was good at this and maybe I can get good again, but I had the excuse of age doing something brand new that you've never done before and just, I mean literally getting my ask kicked over and over and over again gave me some much needed humility. Again, it reminds me to be, to be humble in other parts of my life to, which has been really cool. And then of course, you know the, yeah, go ahead. I

Wil Schroter: was gonna say about how, how to help your startup. I mean like, you know, let's talk about that. You got your mass kicked in Brazilian jiu jitsu, you ran like crazy in soccer, but then you woke up on monday morning and how did your game change at work? So

Ryan Rutan: the first one that was really noticeable was just the energy levels. The, you know, when you get physically active again, particularly if you've not been physically active for a while, you really feel the difference. And I had been fairly sedentary for 15 years, right? Started to play a little bit more of the kids and I had some activities that were relatively physical in nature, but nothing like what I'm doing now and the delta and energy levels has been insane. Uh used to be, you know, I'd be just absolutely dragon tail by midday and now I never, like, I used to remember, I used to go home and take a midday nap. I'd go home for lunch, eat as fast as I could and take that 15 to 20 minutes old man nap and then, and then feel okay and come back in right, I don't do that anymore. I feel good. I've got energy all the time. In fact, my challenge now is Waking up at random hours of the night, like pumping adrenaline, ready to go wrestle or something and it turns out there's nobody there at 4:00 AM,

Wil Schroter: where's your mental capacity at, you know, your your energy is there, but like, you know, when you're thinking critical decisions, creativity, you know, all those things like how, how did, how has that changed?

Ryan Rutan: And it's interesting because it can be a little hard to put a finger on in the beginning, but what I'm finding is that I'm spending less time, less time preparing for stuff and more time doing. I think that when you get back into it, maybe this is a, this is a physical sport thing, but you don't have time to make decisions, you have to make snap decisions, you just kind of act faster. Um, and so I think I'm spending less time, the laboring decisions and more time working more time taking action, so a little less less pensive and, and, and more, you know, more action oriented, which I think has helped a lot and also, you know, it's, it's interesting, but you become a little more resilient right there. There are things that have happened in the course of this year that were major challenges, things that, you know, would have would have set me back, you know, previously would have made, given me pause, um you know, I would have would have worn me down a bit and my resilience, which is one of those stats, that's, that's kind of hard to measure until you need to write, you don't really know what your bank of resiliency is until it's tested. And this year I've been incredibly resilient, right? I just know that I've got the energy to do it. I've got the capacity to do it and uh, and, and I'm fully energized to charge and do stuff. That feels really good.

Wil Schroter: I think what messes with us though is that in the early stages like, you know, we're just starting out just like we did, it's kind of hard to be able to say, hey, Ryan, I know we're killing ourselves right now, but go for a run, but you know, or hey, why don't you, why don't you bail out of here? And, and uh, and go do something jujitsu? It's like, what do you like? We have 80 hours worth of work to do right now to what? But you know, we did

Ryan Rutan: something really smart. We did something incredibly smart at one point when we started doing office activities. Right? And so rather than say, I'm gonna go off and do this thing, that's, that's non startup, That's, you know, gonna give me, give me something else to do, We did it as a group, right? So I'm talking specifically about when we kicked off office hockey and it had such an impact because people didn't feel like they were taking time away from work. It was sort of, we, we masked non startup stuff in a start up outfit, right? And we said, hey, look, let's go do this together. And it made a big difference, right, camaraderie up physical activity up, right? Just overall energy up. It was there were there were bragging rights involved, right? Yeah. We did have a couple of trips to the hospital, didn't we? Also, you know what, one contractor and two of our neighboring companies. Right? So out of the three people that got injured, we didn't have any employees involved, just one contractor. So I feel okay about that.

Wil Schroter: Yeah, I agree. I agree. We got lucky. So, but but here's the thing, man, they said, I feel like when we're at a point where things are hardest, things are most stressful, that's when we need it the most, but that's when we take it the least. And so I think I think we need to talk about that juncture because I think again, the stuff that you and I are doing now, we've got great hobbies now and I really love the way we were able to balance our lives. But I want to talk about what we would have done six years ago when everything was at risk when every day, every minute, every hour mattered in our own survival and what we could have done differently and maybe what other folks can do differently to kind of have managed ourselves a little bit better.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, well, I mean we could have just done more of what we're doing now. The only thing that was really, I think so, I think the only thing that was really stopping us was was it was largely mental, maybe not to the degree that we are now, but I still think that, you know, they're, they're always there are always more hours in the day. You can find it, you can find the time and I think if we go back to, you know, the, the idea that there are productivity gains that you will get more done, you know, we've talked about this were, you know, just working yourself to the ground has a real diminishing returns, There's only so many hours of like high productivity stuff you can do in a day and then you just end up with really, you know, low value tasks that you can still accomplish, but they're not really moving the meter. And so I think that in hindsight, I think we could have done, we could have done more to, to take care of ourselves. I don't know that we could do it to the level that we are now and part of that is probably just a comfort level. I don't know that I would have been comfortable doing as much as I am when I could have said, hey, if I wake up at four o'clock in the morning, I'm not going to be thinking about jujitsu, I'm gonna be thinking about, you know, writing, you know, one more email sequence gonna be thinking about that. That, you know, that's what about one more behavioral analysis we can do to figure out why people aren't signing up at the rate we are right, but probably would have been better off if I hadn't,

Wil Schroter: I gotta tell you for me, a lot of it came down to feeling conflicted. I felt like if I didn't invest every single minute in the startup, that I wasn't being a good soldier, you know, and I, and I don't know that I knew at the time that that was a mistake. I actually felt proud of that, right? I felt like 16 hours in means 16 hours and it's all good and, and I'm just going to be a better company for it and how dare anybody else not have the same level of commitment. And there was probably some truth to that. My, my head was in the right place, sort of, It was just, I didn't understand the part where every hour of the day isn't the same hour of the day, right? Tops. I've got, even today when I've got far more knowledge than I've ever had at this point tops, I've got eight hours, best case on my best day and only one day of the week where I'm going to perform at a meaningful capacity Every other day of the week is going to be sub eight hours and by the end of the week, by the end of Friday being the end of the week, I got nothing now. I didn't believe that before. I believe that I've got 16 hours for five days in a row and probably some more on the weekend. Here's what messed with me. I had hours, I didn't have output and I believe the two, if I was showing up at work, I had output and we've talked about this before. But, but what I didn't understand was that those extra hours would have had so much more ry if I had put them in something completely different. So that the hours were that I was spending my money that we're spending the core eight hours would have been much higher octane hours had I used my other time to reset and make those better hours sure

Ryan Rutan: It's, it's 100% true. It's, it's a hard lesson. I think it's there are a number of lessons I think you can learn from other people and I think there are some that you just have to go through yourself. And I think that understanding the guy on time spent is one of those, it's a very, very personal. I think we can tell founders. Hey, take more time out, give yourself a break, recharge the batteries, do all that stuff. But I think they're going to go through the same challenges that you and I did, which is that you're you want to wear that badge of honor because you don't, you're not certain at that point, right? You don't know how things are gonna work out and so you you know that it's not going to grow without you and so you assume the more you you put into it, the more you're gonna get out of it. And sadly that's just not the case. Right? We've talked about this, there's a diminishing return and you can't really get around that, right? So yeah, it would have been great to invest earlier in ourselves. But we didn't. I think one thing that's interesting to talk about will is when when do we start to turn the corner on that and I can, I can certainly think of a few examples personally where my thinking around this changed quite drastically. But for you, what was it what started to what started to to get you out of the work work work mentality and and start to appreciate that there is value in time spent outside the office.

Wil Schroter: The first one was when we had kids, right? I mean it was the first time in my life I was 37 years old. I had my first child. It was the first time in my life Where I had to leave work boy. I gotta imagine for a lot of people listening to this Ryan, they're like, Huh? What? You were 37 and it occurred to you to leave work. What? And like of course idiot you've got a kid like how would you not know that? Right? It wasn't obvious to me at all. I specifically remember sitting at my desk And six o'clock hits and my wife texted me and she's like, hey, just, you know, just a friendly reminder. We got on a dinner as a family, you know, for the first time in a few minutes and we lived close to the office and I was like, whoa, Like it's only 6:00 like it's still light outside

Ryan Rutan: the street lights aren't on yet mom,

Wil Schroter: I don't have to be exactly right. You don't, you don't go home now. And I remember getting my car and I'm driving home and I'm thinking to myself, it never occurred to me until this very minute that I'm driving home that I would have to start leaving work at what is essentially a reasonable hour for the rest of my life. Like, like I just worked until dark. I'd never seen daylight for like two decades right? I mean dude, that's a long

Ryan Rutan: time. The pic, the pictures told that story. You were, you were pale to prove it.

Wil Schroter: Oh yeah yeah and I have a golem like look on me to prove it, right? I mean it was disgusting, right? But but okay, so, but that was the first time, you know, if you're asking kind of like what broke the seal and then something interesting happened, I get home and normally going home was just another place to work. And if I sound like I'm over selling it, I'm not proud of it. It may sound like I'm like telling you how much I worked and how proud I am. I'm regretful now that I know better, you know, it's one of those things where at the time, yeah, I was absolutely proud of it as a badge of honor. But now I look back on it and I'm like, man, like, what a bunch of wasted effort, you know, wasted time, wasted life. But anyway, I'm back home and you know, I got my laptop plugged in and I'm playing with my daughter and I notice I'm not going back over to the laptop, I'm just playing with my daughter and for the first time in my life I'm like, this is more important than work. And while that sounds obvious to any sane person, it wasn't obvious to me until that very moment. And that time spent with my daughter was the first time I developed a habit of stopping work and it was unheard of for me, prior to that, it's all I knew and all of a sudden, guess what? I actually slept really well, You know, like I actually had a moment in my day that I could talk to somebody about, that wasn't my job. This again, it sounds silly, but that was, that's where things changed and that's kind of what we're light bulb went off going, man, maybe there's something to this. And so that was interesting. But the second time also to do with what was going to be the birth of my son, I'm sitting in the labor room with my wife and you know, she's busy having a kid. You know, that's obviously very important and I'm sitting there with my laptop. Incidently, she's sitting there with her laptop because it was kind of like this downtime where nothing was happening and I'm looking up a Youtube video for some reason about how to fix something in our house and the guy on Youtube is saying, hey, it's actually not that hard, You just do this, this and this and you can make it work. And I looked at Sarah, I was like, you know, none of this, this carpentry stuff is that hard if you just know what the trick is. I think I'm gonna become a carpenter and remember her looking at me like, dude, I'm having a kid right now. It's talking about becoming a carpenter. Wait what? But that's when it happened and my son was born, it was a miracle and all these great things. I love the little dude, but I decided at that moment I was going to become a carpenter. The reason the reason this

Ryan Rutan: story has been picturing the look on Sarah's face, it's not, it's not,

Wil Schroter: Yeah, yeah, She was like, what? Um so out of nowhere, this is about three years ago I decided that I want to become a carpenter and what was important about that. As I said, I wanted to go do something that was as far away from building startups or technology or anything as possible and I found it. And so Ryan, you know how the story goes. You know, I went into my second garage and started building a workshop and now it's become this whole like massive thing, right? And it

Ryan Rutan: looks like the place where in hitman you go to pick your weapons. That's what

Wil Schroter: it looks like. Like Tony Stark's workshop. Yes, but listen, here's why that was meaningful. It doesn't matter if you care about carpenter or not. What matters is it gave me an outlet to constantly go do something and work on something that has absolutely nothing to do with my job. It allowed me to work with my hands, it allowed me to use my creative mind and it allowed me to create something every day. And that was the most important part, the most important part is that at the end of the day I have something to show for my time and effort. One of the things that I think we don't really wrap our heads around in the startup world is it sometimes takes us years to create something that's maybe this amorphous thing like an app or something like that. We often don't see the fruits of our labor for years and sometimes not at all, but here all of a sudden I could work on something, get my mind free of my startup stuff and see something at the end of the day and I think that created a deep sense of fulfillment for me that kind of started to take a lot of the edge off a lot of the long timelines and kind of the world view we had of building a startup because I could start to just do things incrementally and kind of get that passion fulfilled.

Ryan Rutan: That's interesting. So yes, you're getting your gratification gratification from, from, yeah, building something somewhere else. So yeah, it's similar to, I think it's, it's fairly similar how I'm feeling about the resiliency piece, right? Which is that we can weather the storm, we can wait things out, you know, bring some patients. Yeah. And all those things are important. I mean, and certainly Children are an exercise in the creation of patients or at least spending it. Yeah. So yeah, they're all all positive things all have an impact in their own way on, on the startup itself, which is, is interesting and I don't think it's, it's obvious either. I think that, you know, if we weren't asking these questions of ourselves, we weren't, you know, wanting to share this with other founders. I don't know that it's obvious. I don't know that you wouldn't necessarily notice that your impact changes at work and I'm hoping that as people are listening to this, that they start to feel, again, we talk about permission a lot that there were giving them permission to go and do some things outside of the startup and start to feel better in a lot of different ways and pay attention to those things, right? Because again, I don't think that it's necessarily obvious how these things will manifest and what ways your startup will start to benefit from these things. But I think you pay a little attention, you'll you'll start to see that

Wil Schroter: Ryan, just for a second. I want to shift gears for just a second and I want to say if you were to say, I don't care about even being healthier, I don't care about having more fun. I don't care about pursuing hobbies, I don't care about any of this stuff. All I care about and maybe all I can care about to be fair is the output of my startup right now. So tell me why doing any of this stuff will make my startup better. I understand how it will make me healthier, better person, all that stuff, kind of like the way meditation does or exercise what have you. But if I only wanted to do it solely for the benefit of helping my startup, where do you think

Ryan Rutan: or how you

Wil Schroter: couch that to me? How do you sell me on? You're never going to be at your optimum game, if you don't actually create a non startup version of your life.

Ryan Rutan: Sure. Well, I think it's a lot of things we've talked about, some of them already, but I think a big one is just perspective, right? When you are constantly doing the same thing, you're always looking at things from that same literally from the same seat, you're sitting at your office chair, you're staring at that laptop,

Wil Schroter: your life

Ryan Rutan: perspective gets very, very narrow, right? And as founders were often charged with things that require us to be myopic, we have to focus, we have to dial in. But if we do that too much, we lose ourselves. And I don't mean lose ourselves in in an existential way. But I'm saying that we get lost, we lose perspective on what we're building, why we're building it, who were connecting it to, We lose total perspective on what's going on around us and that could be really dangerous, right? You get tunnel vision, you get, you know, heads down and you just go wild and engineering for six months and you forget about what's happening in the world around you. Things can change to the detriment of your startup really quickly. Right? And so I think that it's really important to recognize that solely working all the time absolutely impacts your perspective, right? Physically, you're sitting in one place, the same view of your laptop and you're trying to live from that 11 point of view all the time is extremely limiting. Right from a, from an energy perspective, from a, an experienced perspective and I think that will start to reflect in your work. I know it will, I know it doesn't mind. Um, every time I shake up life a little bit, I get more creative, I get more energetic and good things start to happen, right? And some of these are really hard to put a finger on and they're a bit intangible. Um, but that would be one that I would say is extremely important and the other is burnout, right? And we've already addressed this a bit, but you will burn out. There is no version of anyone I've ever met. I don't care how strong their motor is and we have worked with some founders, they just have insane motors, right? You just think these people could go and go and go and go and go and yet in every case that I can think of, there came a point at which that person raised their hand and said, I got to come out of the game like I gotta tap out for a little while, right? And it often happens too late, right? Case in point with, with what happened to you, you know, had you seen that coming sooner? Had you pump the brakes a bit, we probably could have avoided taking you to the hospital, right? But you were wearing the badge of honor, you were putting in the time you were staying nose to the grindstone and it costs you, right? And that is, I would say an inevitability, right? It is not a oh well it won't happen to me. You run out of energy, right? You run out of energy. There's, there's a reason you only play one NFL game a week, right? You've only got so much energy to apply to your greatest effort, right? You can, you know, they spend the week practicing doing a lot of other stuff, but when it comes to the really important stuff game day, there's only so much, so much energy you have for that, right? You have to recognize that you have to work around it. And I think one of the best ways to work around that is by getting yourself away from the desk, away from the start up, you know, put your phone away, get away, get away from whatever, you know, we'll bring you back into work mode. Like you said, you know, find a good distraction, whether it's your kids a sport kind of doesn't matter when you have that feeling all of a sudden that like you're not being drawn back to work, you know, something good has happened, right? There's no version of you waking up the next day being like, well, you know what, I had so much fun not working for two hours last night, I'm just not going to work today, right? It doesn't happen. So there's no real danger in it and there's a ton of benefit.

Wil Schroter: I agree with everything you're saying. So let me put it a different way if it were the case that you were a total maniac and you said I have to work 16 hours a day, I'm not willing to give up any of that time. He would be my argument toward that, I would say, okay, 16 hours a day. Would you agree that within the 16 hours that there are some peak hours during that time? And by way of that, would you agree that there's some shit hours during that time? You know, it would be hard pressed not to have some version of that response that would say, yeah, I've got good hours and I've got bad hours, take the crap hours, whatever they are, there are two hours a day, invest them in something else to make the better hours better. It's that simple.

Ryan Rutan: That's a wrap for this episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan on behalf of my partner Wil Schroder and all the startups dot com family thanking you for joining us and we hope you'll continue to join us. Be sure to subscribe rate and comment on Itunes or wherever you love to listen to startup therapy, you can find all of our episodes at startups dot com slash podcast if you're looking for more amazing resources to launch or grow your startup, be sure to head to startups dot com and check out startups unlimited. It's everything we have to offer from our online university to our amazing community of experts and founders and even all the tools we've built like biz plan, fungible and launch rocks. It's everything a founder needs, visit startups dot com slash begin that startups dot com slash b e g i N. You'll thank me later.